Episode 9: “Are you mad at me?”

Elizabeth Romanski (00:11):
You're listening to Raising Curious Learners, a podcast from Britannica for Parents, where we talk to experts and discuss the issues and trends in child development, education and parenting.

Elizabeth Romanski (00:33):
Welcome back to Raising Curious Learners. I'm Elizabeth Romanski and my cohost, as always, is Ann Gadzikowski. At Britannica for Parents, we know that parenting is one of the hardest jobs on earth and our guest today is an expert in trying to make your lives as parents just a little bit easier.

Elizabeth Romanski (00:57):
There's no doubt that the pandemic has caused a lot of stress for parents.

Ann Gadzikowski (01:01):
You know, every parent and caregiver I know, everyone I talk to, is struggling with all of the new stresses caused by remote learning, social distancing, financial worries, and all these other new situations that have been created by the pandemic. And most of our focus at Britannica for parents is on offering resources that will help them cope with this new normal.

Elizabeth Romanski (01:22):
Exactly. And so today on our podcast, we're going to talk with an expert on helping parents deal with this stress. So we want to welcome today, Dr. Carla Naumburg. She is a writer, mother, and clinical social worker. Her latest book is "How to Stop Losing Your Sh*t with Your Kids: A Practical Guide to Becoming a Calmer, Happier Parent." Thank you for joining us today, Carla.

Dr. Carla Naumburg (01:43):
Thank you. I'm delighted to be here.

Ann Gadzikowski (01:45):
Welcome, Carla. We're so excited to speak with you. Why don't we start with you telling us how you became interested in writing books for parents?

Dr. Carla Naumburg (01:53):
Oh, that's easy. I became a parent and very quickly realized I had no idea what I was doing and that it was way harder than I ever thought it was going to be. And I've always kind of worked things out and struggled through things and found answers in writing whether it was like my journal when I was a kid or writing books for parenting. So, um, that's kinda how I came to it as I was really trying to figure out some answers, some strategies, some ideas for how to manage parenting, and then it turned into books.

Elizabeth Romanski (02:20):
You know, it seems like parenting is getting harder and harder, and that was even before the pandemic. And I'm just curious, you know, why are so many parents struggling and how has the pandemic made it even worse?

Dr. Carla Naumburg (02:32):
Okay. So let's address the question of why parenting seems harder before the pandemic. And I think there are a few reasons for that. I think maybe every generation thinks it's hard, but I do think parenting is uniquely hard. And I think there are a couple of reasons.

First parenting, wasn't actually a verb before the 1970s. If you read Jennifer Senior's amazing book, "All Joy And No Fun", which is kind of a sociological exploration of parenting, she notes that, you know, women who stayed home with their children - and really it was women - used to be called "Housewives." Their job was to take care of the house. You know, you put the baby wherever you got to put the baby or send the kid outside to play. And you dust and clean and ironed the sheets. And now women who stay home are called, stay at home moms. And it's okay if your house is a mess, it's okay. If your sheets have never been ironed, I've never ironed sheets. I don't even know why you would do that. Because your job is to take care of your children. And so all of a sudden there is this pressure on parents that I think didn't really exist before. Our job before was to keep our kids alive long enough that they could pick up whatever the family job is. You learn to be a doctor like your father. You learn to be a blacksmith or a farmer, whatever it is. And now we are preparing our children for an unknown future, right? My husband works for businesses that work on apps, not appetizers, like applications on phones, right? So these phones, the internet, wasn't a thing when we were kids. Phones, weren't a thing when we were kids. Apps, weren't a thing. So literally he's working in jobs that didn't exist when we were children, and I think parents are acutely aware that we're supposed to prepare our children for things that don't even exist yet, and that's really anxiety provoking.

I also think social media plays a huge role in why parenting is so hard these days, because we're getting messages about what parenting should look like that often aren't accurate, authentic, or realistic. They're like these filtered versions of the best moments of parenting. And then we all think that nobody else's kids ever have meltdowns, which isn't true.

And then finally, and this is going to sound a bit rich coming from someone who's written a bunch of parenting books, but I think parenting experts actually make things harder. Like the idea that somebody could ever truly be an expert in parenting? I think that also sets up an unrealistic idea that there are people out there who have nailed this gig and who know how to get their kids to put the shoes on the first time around. And just to be really honest with your audience, I struggle too. We all do. And so I think the idea of parenting experts certainly they're quite helpful. Absolutely. But I think it's a double edged sword and they can also make things harder. And since the pandemic, I mean, everything's harder now that there's pandemic. So all of it, but there's so many reasons.

Elizabeth Romanski (04:59):
So actually I have a quick followup. In your book, you mentioned that we're kind of the generation that yells with regards to parenting, and do you think that that's because like you said, it is getting harder or have you thought about, you know, why we are kind of that generation that yells versus other parents, you know, they used to spank their kids more and all of that, I'm just curious.

Dr. Carla Naumburg (05:20):
So I think every generation of parents has been harsh on their kids in different ways. I mean, we used to beat kids, right. There used to be a lot more, what could be probably described as neglect, even though it may have been common or, I don't want to say appropriate, but really common or typical for that style or that community. But I think that now we know that hitting kids is really, really bad, you shouldn't hit your kids, but parents still get really stressed out for any number of reasons. I mean, even on a good day, parenting's hard. And so the yelling comes out. But I think one of the reasons we talk about it more is because for the first time, I think in human nature, we actually care about having a relationship with our children. Now let me be clear, I'm not saying previous didn't care about their kids. I'm not saying previous generations of parents didn't love them, but we're the first generation that is being told really explicitly that your relationship with your children matters and it may affect the kind of adult they grow up to become. No other previous generation heard that. I mean, you remember all these psychological studies about kids who were being left in cribs and don't, don't over love your baby because you'll damage them and don't touch them or hug them too much. And now we're being told just the opposite that you need to give them sort of the perfect and exact right amount of love and attention, or you're going to screw them up forever. And so I think that makes parents these days perhaps feel even more guilty when we lose our temper than previous parents may have. But let me be clear. I'm not saying this generation of parents is any worse at it, I just think we have a lot more pressure on us.

Elizabeth Romanski (06:41):
Yeah. It makes me remember some of the research I had done before we launched our Britannica for Parents website, where I was looking at millennial parents and they are more likely to identify their child as one of their friends, and that is how that relationship has now kind of caused a little bit more of that blended between the boundaries.

Dr. Carla Naumburg (07:02):
Absolutely. I mean, no previous generation would have said that they would have said, this is my offspring. This is my insurance for the future. This is who's going to continue the family business. And there was nothing wrong with that necessarily. It's just how the generations work, right?

Ann Gadzikowski (07:13):
What you said about technology really jumped out at me. The technology is changing so quickly that it's hard for anybody to keep up with it. So that must add an additional stress for parents because they don't always understand the technology that their children are using.

Dr. Carla Naumburg (07:29):
Oh, I absolutely agree. And the stress exists on so many levels, not only in terms of parents' engagement with technology, especially when our kids are younger, like, "Should I be using an app to track how many diapers they have in a day?" to, you know, social media and "What are all the other parents doing and am I doing it right?" And now, this is especially heightened during the pandemic, for those of us with older kids, "How much screen time are they getting? What kind of screen time are they getting? How much do I need to freak out about this?" I mean, my daughters are on Roblox right now as we speak, and this is not an ad for that app. It's just an honest disclosure that that's what they're doing. Because my husband and I are both working. They thankfully I'm very grateful happened to have had a half day of school in the building during the pandemic, which is amazing. But normally they would still be at school right now. And they're not. So they're on screen time. Cause that's the only way I know they're not going to interrupt me during this podcast. So I absolutely agree with you that there's so much fear and worry about how will screen time and the amount of screen time our kids get impact their development and growth. And again, we are a pioneering generation of parents in this way for better or for worse. You know, when I was a kid, I got a huge amount of screen time, but the phrase "screen time" didn't even exist. I watched like "The Love Boat" and "The A Team". I'm not saying that was great. And now there's so many different options and what should I be choosing? And what should I allow and how much? I don't know, it's challenging.

Ann Gadzikowski (08:44):
And then with the pandemic, everybody's home 24/7 and parents need a break.

Dr. Carla Naumburg (08:49):
Oh, parents need a break. But also parents just need to work.

Ann Gadzikowski (08:52):
True.

Dr. Carla Naumburg (08:53):
And if you are a fortunate enough parent who have worked to do that, you can do from home. You know, you've kind of hit the lottery there 'cause you have a job and you can do it from home. But then what do you do with your kids? And even kids who are old enough to entertain themselves, there's only so much time in a day. At least this is my experience with my children, who I think are pretty good at playing on their own, but there's only so many sort of puzzles they're going to do or books they're going to read or art projects I can get them into before they're done, and either I still have to work or I'm too tired to entertain them. So yeah, out come the screens. Absolutely.

Ann Gadzikowski (09:23):
Really need parenting experts to give us some guidance when things are so stressful. And a lot of your suggestions and ideas seem to be grounded in the importance of mindfulness. Can you talk a little bit about mindfulness in your work?

Dr. Carla Naumburg (09:38):
Absolutely. So one of my goals for this book was to write a book that was fundamentally about mindfulness without ever really using the "M" word because, cause I think it is a turnoff for some parents and it evokes this sense of like, "Oh, you should go be like eating your kale." By the way, I can't stand kale. But there's like all of these sort of assumptions about what it means to be a mindful parent. And I'm just talking about kind of finding strategies and a practice in which you can sort of slow down, get out of your own mind enough to really tune into what's happening in the present moment, as opposed to, you know, all of the whirrings of your own brain. Worrying about the future, wondering about the past, stressing about things that may or may not have happened or may never happen. When we can sort of step out of that constant rambling and come into the present moment to notice what's actually really happening, we can be much more effective parents and kind of calmer, kinder, less reactive parents. And the way that I came to mindfulness was, and I write about this in the book, I was sort of desperate for a way to stop yelling at my kids to the point that I literally sat down - this was several years ago - and googled, "how do I stop yelling at my kids?" I typed those words into the Google search bar and bear in mind at that point, I was just finishing a PhD in clinical social work, which is basically an advanced degree in big feelings and confusing thoughts. And I couldn't figure it out. So it's, it's really a struggle, but I would say that mindfulness and this ability to notice when my brain is spinning out of control, when I am parenting from a place of regret or worry or anxiety or anger, to notice that's what's happening for me and find a way to kind of slow down and come back to the present moment. And that's been especially important during the pandemic when I can really notice myself getting super anxious, right? I think one of my favorite memes of this year says "Welcome to 2020. If you do not yet have an anxiety disorder, one will be assigned to you." Which is both like funny and also so sad and awful. But you know, we are living in an incredibly unbelievably anxiety-provoking time. And I don't want to parent from that place of anxiety, not only because then I make decisions that aren't grounded necessarily in reality, but also because I get incredibly irritable when I'm anxious. That's one of my sort of red flags is I get very cranky with my kids and I don't want to do that. So when I can manage my anxiety, which is about accepting it and noticing when it's triggered, I can parent from a more effective and empathic place.

Elizabeth Romanski (11:52):
I can understand and relate. I am slso someone who gets irritable as their anxiety increases. So I am curious, a lot of your tactics are kind of what you said, which is focused on trying to identify your triggers so that you can kind of catch yourself before you reach that peak like meltdown point. And this year is probably - not probably, is - so much more challenging because it's creating so many new triggers for parents. Let's say a parent ahead of this year did a pretty good job of understanding what kind of ticks them off and they know how to mitigate it. But now so many new triggers are being introduced this year. So how do they balance the ones that already are there with these new ones? Like I just, I feel like it's just chaos.

Dr. Carla Naumburg (12:34):
It is chaos, absolutely. So let me be clear. The way I define a trigger in the book is I say that a trigger is anything that makes you more likely to lose your temper with your kids. And it can be anything from, you know, fatigue and anxiety to a bill that you can't afford to pay or an ingrown toenail or, you know, some upsetting remark that a friend made to you that you're not quite sure how to interpret or, you know, there's so many things that can be triggers and you're right. I mean, for many of us, even before the pandemic, we were walking around triggered most of the time, and by triggered, I mean, that's sort of our, our nervous system was ramped up. Our defenses were up and we're sort of ready to lose it. The way I describe it in the book is I talk about our buttons, that all of us have these metaphorical buttons all over our body. And when we are triggered, those buttons get big and bright and red and very sensitive and super pushable. And as anybody who's ever been with a child in an elevator knows, that when a kid sees a button, they want to push it. Doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the kid. It's just human nature, right? Our kids know, they know when we're triggered and often they may be triggered too. And so then they come along and they push the buttons and we lose it. For most of us, even before the pandemic, we were walking around triggered a lot, because more parents are working outside the home now than they ever were. And that, you know, constant exhaustion running around balancing work and life and all the things is a trigger. 24 hours news cycle is a trigger. Social media is a trigger, like all these things. So now enter this pandemic and we are all in an unbelievably heightened state, right? So even our baseline, even the best we can be is significantly more triggered than it was. And this is true for all of us. So what do we do? Well, we have to ramp up our coping skills, you know, for some people, maybe they have more time to do this because they're not schlepping their kids all over the place to soccer or, you know, to all the activities, right? So maybe they have a little more time, but you know, if you're out of a job, which means you have more time on your hands, your stress level has also gone up exponentially, right? Because you don't have a job, you don't have money. Lack of structure can be a trigger, all those things. And if your kids are home more, right? That lack of free time, free space, or just the time away from your kids. 'Cause let's be honest, those kids, they don't stop pushing buttons. Right? What I recommend for most parents is to whatever ability you can, you have to kick up your coping mechanisms around getting sleep, moving your body. I have a whole list of them in the book, but also this is the time when we have to dig deep for self compassion and realize that this is literally an experience that I think there are very few human beings alive who are around for the 1918 pandemic. Even those individuals, you know, that was a completely different pandemic if for no other reason than we didn't have internet. Right? So that changed everything. But literally none of us have lived through this before. None of us have parented in an age of the internet and a pandemic before. And there's, there's no rule book, there's no advice book. And so we have to just continue to have a huge amount of compassion for ourselves. That's really my number one strategy and practice. And I do a deep dive into self compassion in the book.

Ann Gadzikowski (15:20):
So let's think of an example of the kinds of situations that parents find themselves in right now. And let's think in terms of a dad, because I know we often talk about moms and let's include the dads in the conversation too. So say we have a dad who's working at home and maybe he has a partner, but his partner is not feeling well that day. So dad knows that he's really going to be on that day and he didn't get a lot of sleep. And he's thinking a lot about the news. There was a news report that upset him. How could that dad take some of the ideas for self compassion and self care and carry that into his day with his children?

Dr. Carla Naumburg (15:56):
Absolutely. I love this. And let's acknowledge that if mom's not feeling well, is dad worried that mom has COVID? Does dad have other family members, parents that he's caring about or worrying about, you know, is the family financially secure? Like let's just acknowledge all the ways in which this is challenging. And here's what I would say for dad in terms of self compassion and self care.

Number one, set your expectations low for what you're going to accomplish in a day. So if you're supposed to be working that day, dad, do you have any sick days? Do you have any earned time off that you can take off? If not, and you have to work today. Hopefully, my prayer is that you have a working community where you can say to them, "Hey, my, my wife is sick today. I'm on kid duty. So I just want you to know if I'm not as present as I usually am, that's why." But I realize not everybody has that working community where they can say that, right? They don't have understanding bosses or colleagues. And so then dad, if you need to, and I'm going to quote, uh, Glennon Melton, the author of "Untamed" - and I adore her. she's sort of a social media figure and a very popular writer, motivational speaker, she's got kids. If you need to put your kids in front of what she calls a quick seven hour TV show to get through the day, dad that's okay. That is, and I will tell you as someone who spent many summers, literally staring at the TV eight hours a day with my sister, because of the chaos of our own parenting situation, I went on to have a good life, right? I'm well educated. I have a husband, a supportive partner, kids. If that's what dad you need to do to get through this day, it is okay. Check in with your kids at the beginning of the day, spend some time with them at the end of the day, make sure to give them some food occasionally, like, that's what you gotta do.

If dad has time to spend time with his kids, here's what I recommend. Try to do one thing at a time. I find it virtually impossible to interact with children and do anything else. So if dad is thinking to himself "OO I'm going to play a quick game of Monopoly, and when it's not my turn, I'm getting my phone out and I'm going to check my work emails." This is a recipe for disaster. You're going to end up snapping at your kids. And then you're going to feel really guilty about it because our brains just can't both. So to the extent that this dad can, I encourage him to single task or do one thing at a time. So to say to his kids, "I can play Monopoly with you for half an hour. We will not finish this Monopoly game in half an hour because Monopoly games literally never end, but I can play for you for half an hour. So I'm going to warn you that when the timer goes off, we have to stop the game, even if we're not at a good stopping point. So if we can all agree to that, and then I have to go do some work for half an hour and you guys can keep the game going yourselves, you can go watch a show, like whatever, and then we'll come back together." So I really encourage parents to focus on one thing at a time if they can.

And then probably at the end of the day, dad is going to feel like he didn't do a good enough job. That's my guess, because it's just too hard. I don't know anybody who really can be successful on those days. And what I encourage dad to remember is this is hard for all of us. Even those parents on social media who were like, "I taught my kids what a cell looks like today. You know, we did experiments and I did my work presentation." If you're seeing that, first of all, turn off the social media, but this is hard for all of us. It's okay that it's hard. It doesn't mean you're a bad parent and tomorrow's another day. It might be another hard day, but at least it's another day. So just find that positive, kind self-talk and if you don't have it within you go, go call somebody who does. Go talk to your parenting partner. If you have one, go talk to your parents or your friends, somebody who's going to say to you, Hey buddy, it's okay. This is a really hard time. It's not going to last forever and you don't have to be a perfect parent to be a good one. So, That's what I would say to dad.

Ann Gadzikowski (19:10):
I love that advice, lowering expectations. I think everybody really needs to do that. And it's, it's really fantastic advice.

Elizabeth Romanski (19:20):
Okay. So it's time for a quick break, but don't go anywhere. We'll be right back.

Ann Gadzikowski (19:28):
Hi, everyone. This episode is brought to you by Britannica Premium. With the world and the news around us changing by the second reliable information is more important than ever. Consider supporting our quest for the truth with the Britannica Premium membership and gain access to over 1 million pages of fact check content, digitized collections of our first edition, and more. Go to britannica.com/premium 30 to get 30% off your subscription today.

Elizabeth Romanski (20:01):
I was curious. So in the book you have a wonderful acronym that I, I just get a kick out of every time, but it does an amazing job still of being able to bucket the different characteristics of a meltdown. And I was wondering if you could explain the acronym.

Dr. Carla Naumburg (20:17):
Yes. I can explain this one. So... the acronym is fart, and for your parents out there who were like "eww", I put it in there specifically because parenting is messy and dirty and unpleasant sometimes. And also apparently I've been a mom for too long 'cause potty jokes still make me laugh. But, um, I tried to use every opportunity I could in the book to remind parents that this parenting thing is far too serious to be taken seriously, and we have to laugh at ourselves.

But look, I really want it to be clear about what I described as a meltdown, both a parental and a child meltdown, because I think some parents feel like any time they display an unpleasant or negative emotion towards their child, that's a meltdown and that's not true. I don't consider it to be losing your temper if you feel mad or sad or upset or helpless or out of control or frustrated or anxious, there's nothing wrong with that. There is absolutely nothing wrong with feeling that way and letting your child know you feel that way. But there are certain characteristics that happens sometimes when we parents lose our tempers that are more problematic and we all do it, right, but let's understand what they are. So fart stands for... the "F" is for feelings. And I want to be clear that these parental meltdowns, or losing our temper, losing it. This is about big feelings. It's an emotional reaction, not a rational one. Like, most of us don't come home after a day of work, which for me means like literally walking from one room to the next right now, most of us don't say, "Oh, I think I'll go lose my temper with my kids right now." Right? It's about our feelings and our emotions, and many of us think we should be able to control our feelings, but guess what guys, we can't, nobody can control your feelings. They're just sort of there. They can be quite unpredictable, but I want parents to know this is it's a very emotional reaction. Meltdowns are often automatic. The "A" stands for automatic. So that means it's, it's neither conscious nor intentional. It's just sort of this automatic reaction, and reaction is what the "R" is for. In reaction to something else, and many of us may say, well, of course I lost it in reaction to my kid's ridiculous behavior, but sometimes we lose it when our kids aren't actually doing anything that bad. I mean, I can get so triggered at points that my daughter literally walks in the room and I want to be like, go away, walk out, leave, just turn around and leave. I can't handle you right now. And she's not done anything wrong. And sometimes she is actually being annoying, but it's nothing inappropriate for a 10 year old and I still lose it.

So we then have to look at what am I actually reacting to? I'd like to say it's my child, but maybe it's this really unpleasant conversation I had with my husband earlier the day. Maybe it's just the fact that we're living in a pandemic and I can't deal with it anymore. You know, maybe it's something I saw on the news last night that I'm still thinking about, and I'm actually reacting to that on some level. A reaction is also a response to real or perceived danger, and when our nervous systems are on high alert and then a kid comes along and pushes a button, depending on our own history as parents, if we have a trauma history in our childhood, or if there are other things going on for us, our nervous system might actually perceive our child's behavior as threatening in some way, even though, you know, the thoughtful "adulting" part of our brain, our prefrontal cortex might know, "Oh no, this kid isn't out to threaten me", but some other part of our brain, a very sort of deep reptilian, maybe very old parts, some old tapes from our childhood are playing now might actually perceive it as a threat, and then we are reacting to that without even often realizing it. So "F" is for feelings, "A" is for automatic, "R" for reactive and "T" is for toxic.

And this is when we're sort of drawing the line between a behavior that might be okay, a parental response behavior, and one that's really problematic. So let's say your kid is about to dodge out into the street in front of a car and you grab him by the arm really hard because you're worried and you pull them back. So this is an appropriate, reasonable response because you're trying to keep your child safe, right? But let's say you do something similarly when they just spill their milk and you grab their arm and you yank them really hard away from the table. That's sort of an unpredictable, disproportionate response, and it's confusing to children. And that level of confusion can be toxic for a child. And I don't want to freak parents out. I'm not saying this happens all the time, but if it's too intense, too unpredictable, to disproportionate, it happens too often, it can really impact a child's development and their relationship with their parents. So if you find yourself literally screaming over spilled milk, then that may be a question of like, what's going on here and why am I having this really out of control reaction to just a spill? That's that's how I describe a meltdown is it's about feelings, it's automatic, it's reactive and it's toxic. Yeah.

Elizabeth Romanski (24:28):
I think it's very important what you brought up at the beginning of how you may think that you're having a meltdown, but you probably aren't. And so here's an easy way to help yourself identify, because I think because everyone, this year, especially is even more anxious and worrying about being a good parent. They might take something that they said, or even the idea of protecting them if there was a car coming by, like they may think that was like over the top or they were losing it. So you really have to kind of identify and make sure, you know, the clear distinction between what is actually losing it, and what's not.

Dr. Carla Naumburg (25:02):
Right. I am always saying to parents, not only is it okay for you to have feelings in front of your kids, but it is desirable! We want our kids to understand that it's okay to have big feelings, even unpleasant ones. There's nothing wrong with that. It doesn't mean you've done anything wrong. It doesn't mean anything dangerous is going to happen. It's just part of human nature. And that you can have big feelings in relationship. You can be sad, you can be angry, frustrated, confused, overwhelmed in the context of a relationship. And it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the relationship. So hopefully by now, my girls know that there are times when I get mad at their dad and when he gets mad at me, but that we love each other. We've been together for a long time. We're in a solid relationship, but that's normal. That's typical. So I want my kids to know that. So I encourage parents to find ways to identify their feelings when they're with their kids and say, "I'm feeling really mad right now. And I actually need to take a break so I don't yell at you guys." And that's the thing that I've been known to do. And my kids now know that when I go in the kitchen and put my hands flat on the counter and take a few deep breaths, they should probably leave me alone for awhile.

Elizabeth Romanski (25:59):
Yeah. Just start backing up.

Dr. Carla Naumburg (26:01):
Step back, step away from the mother.

Ann Gadzikowski (26:03):
And then they're also parents like me. When I'm upset, I get really quiet. Like I don't yell, I just get really quiet. And I know you've written about the things that are unsaid as much as the things that are said. So what, what kind of advice do you have for the quiet parents?

Dr. Carla Naumburg (26:18):
What I would say to quiet parents is just like with yelling, just like with any display of emotion, no matter what that looks like for you, you want to explain to your kids, what's going on behind it and say, "You know what? I just get really quiet when I'm angry. That's one of the ways it comes out for me." Because the thing is with kids is they're very self centered and that's just a normal developmental thing that happens, and eventually, most, grow out of it, it doesn't mean your kid's a psychopath. There's nothing wrong with them. But one of the side effects of this is they assume that they are the cause of everything that happens. So if we don't say to our kids, "I am feeling sad because XYZ happened." They may think, Oh, I'm the reason mommy got all quiet. I did something wrong. I'm the reason mom yelled. And then they sort of take responsibility for our feelings, which nobody is responsible for anybody else's feelings. It's just not how it works. And so it's really important when we can - and sometimes we don't get this clarity until after the moment has passed - It's really important to say to kids, "I was feeling X, Y, and Z, and that's why I did X, Y, and Z." Now, when I say that kids often learn more from what's unsaid than what we say, kids are super tuned into us and they're meant to be developmentally and evolutionarily they are because we keep them alive. So they need to know what's going on with us because we're the ones who protect them. And so if we say to a kid, "I'm fine!" They're not going to fall for that. They know. Right? And so if we say to a kid nothing's wrong and they can clearly sense that something's wrong, they're going to start building up stories in their mind. Right? "Is mommy mad at me? Did I do something wrong? Is this virus way worse than I think it is? Is somebody sick in my life? Are my parents getting a divorce? Like, did the dog die?" I mean, kids brains can really spiral out of control. And so I think one of the causes of stress in a family, not only for parents, but for children, is when we're afraid to describe our emotions, because we're afraid that it's going to make them stronger. We're afraid that things are going to get out of control. We're afraid that it's going to scare our kids, but it's actually more scary for kids and for adults to not know what's going on. So I really encourage parents when they're calm to talk to their kids about what happened and why.

Ann Gadzikowski (28:18):
Yeah. That's really important. When something hard happens, I think everybody just wants to forget about it and move on, but it is important to take a minute and to talk about what happened and kind of debrief as a family so that your children can understand a little bit better.

Dr. Carla Naumburg (28:32):
Yeah, I mean, I think that I don't think you have to do it every time. Not every moment has to be a learning moment. Sometimes things can just happen and we can move on, you know, parents snap at their kids, kids snap at parents, and sometimes it's best to just ignore it and move on. But if you're seeing a pattern, like my daughter and I were getting into it over and over again, and finally I said to her, "I don't know what to do when you say this." And she said, "Honestly, I don't really know why I say it" - which I think is true. And she said, "Mommy, could you just kind of ignore it, move on." And I said, "Yeah, most of the time I can actually do that." And so we kind of agreed that that's just what we're going to do. But if it's a big moment, if it's a really disruptive, stressful, confusing moment, or if it becomes a pattern, then I think talking about it when you're calm and when you're legitimately calm. Don't try to trick yourself. If you're still ramped up and triggered and you go try to talk to your kid about it, you're just going to end up snapping at them again. But when you're legitimately calm, you can go try to talk to them and it may or may not get anywhere, but you can try.

Elizabeth Romanski (29:21):
Yeah. And even earlier, when you were saying how you have kind of been able to identify and speak to your kids about how you might need to take a time out and kind of a break, I think that's also a really important tool for parents. That can be a very easy way to mitigate your feelings and temper down. And you know, even the Gottmans say this, when you're having a fight, your, your spouse or your partner, they say to do a timeout, but it's so important to also use that when you're with your kids. Because if you can at least acknowledge, you're feeling that way, and then if you show them that you can be responsible for your emotions enough and be respectful where they may not be deserving of your meltdown and you just take a break, then it's just easier for everyone.

Dr. Carla Naumburg (30:02):
Absolutely. And I think many parents are uncomfortable with that because it feels like showing vulnerability to your child or kind of admitting weakness. PS, parents, kids already know all your weak spots. They absolutely know them. They know your buttons and their little fingers fit right in perfectly. But here's how I think about it. I think about what is the behavior I would want my kid to be able to do. What am I modeling for them? And rather than digging their feet in and sort of staying in a fight that nobody's going to win, that nobody can remember how it started, you know, and, and amping it up. If that's what was happening on the playground or in the classroom or with their siblings, that's not what I want my kid to do. I would love it if my kid could say, "Whoa, I need to go take a time out and go in the other room." Like, that would be amazing, and the way they're going to learn it is by watching us do that. And so I apologize to my kids when I lose it, right. I don't apologize for my feelings cause no feelings were ever wrong. And you never have to apologize for how you feel, even if it's the ugliest most unpleasant feeling ever. But we do need to apologize for our behavior sometimes, right? "I was feeling angry and I'm really sorry I yelled at you." And after you apologize, then you can talk about maybe your kid's role in it. If they're, if your kid played some role, if their behavior was problematic, you can talk about that too. But that's after you've offered your sincere apology. So it can't be like, "I'm sorry, I yelled at you, but you throw the ball in the house 27 times when I told you not to." That's not an apology, right. I wish it was. So after you've legitimately apologized then you can talk to your kid about their role in whatever happened, but that's fine to you can apologize.

Ann Gadzikowski (31:30):
So, Carla, I'm curious about your process and your experience as you were writing and researching for your books, was there anything that you learned along the way that really changed you and changed how you parent?

Dr. Carla Naumburg (31:43):
Oh yeah. So many things. Um, most of which can be traced back to mindfulness, in all honesty. And I was a hardcore skeptic. When I went into the mindfulness world, I was like, "This is for dirty hippies who like beat drums in a circle." Really? I was horrible. I was so judgmental. This is not for like my little type A, check the box, get things done personality. And the strategies and skills and insights I learned in my mindfulness training, changed my life and changed my parenting, and I think the biggest one was self-compassion. Because it used to be that every time I would lose it with my kids, I would go into the kitchen, search for chocolate to shove into my face, and think about all the ways I was failing as a parent and what a horrible mother I was. And here's the thing that, that kind of horrible self-talk is actually a trigger. So in the moment it would have been more helpful for me to be trying to calm down. I was actually getting myself more amped up, and then when I would go interact with my kids again, I was much more likely to yell at them, which it was the one thing I was feeling most guilty about. So now I still go in the kitchen. I still occasionally look for chocolate, I will not lie, but I am more likely to think to myself, okay, this is a hard day it's okay. Every parent has hard days. Doesn't mean I'm a bad parent. What do I need? And what do my kids need? And thinking about what we all need is not only inherently compassionate, but it's much more skillful, cause sometimes I'll think to myself, "Oh, my kid hasn't eaten in four hours. She's hangry, but she's not going to do any better until I feed her," which she inherited from me. Sorry, kid. Or, "Oh yeah. I'm actually having a really hard day because for some reason I've been doom scrolling through social media. So I need to put my phone in the other room and get away from it." So when I can have that moment of self compassion, it calms down my triggers. It makes me less likely to yell at my kids. And it often gives me some clarity on what's actually going on so I can then do something differently so I'll be less likely to lose it in the future. I would say that self compassion has become the most powerful strategy. One that I use every single day. I'm much more likely to be compassionate with my children, and so I actually lose my temper with them so much less because of it.

Ann Gadzikowski (33:37):
Self-compassion is, is hard to practice. I've had conversations like this with parents and I'm, I'm thinking of a mom with young kids that I know right now. And she knows that she needs to be more compassionate with herself. And it's just so hard, especially when you're so busy to just give yourself that credit. I wish there was more I could do for my friends who are experiencing this.

Dr. Carla Naumburg (34:01):
So, there is something you can do. And you also said something really important and wise there. I mean, the thing we can do is be that compassionate voice for them when they don't have it. Here's how I think about it. Practicing self compassion is like learning to speak a new language. And it's like learning to speak a new language because for most of us, our parents didn't speak it to us. And it's not because there's anything wrong with our parents. It's because it literally wasn't a concept in the world for so long, especially in Western culture. I mean, I went through a bachelor's degree in psychology, a master's in social work and a doctorate in social work. And I literally never heard those words put together and it wasn't until I started studying mindfulness that I learned about it. So when we first try to speak the words of self compassion, they feel weird. They feel corny and cheesy. And like, do you guys remember the Saturday night live skit of Stuart Smalley who would sit in front of the mirror and look at himself and say, "I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and gosh, darn it, people like me." None of us really want to be that guy, and so it feels really strange. It's really hard to find the words. And when we can't find them, we default back to whatever we used to say to ourselves, our native language, which is usually beating ourselves up. So how do we learn this new language? First of all, we spend time with people who will speak that language to us, that language of compassion. And so when my friends call me and they're in this place of like, "Oh, I had a horrible day and I'm a terrible parent. I'm screwing this up and my kids are going to be a mess." I try to refrain from giving them advice. And this is really hard because I love to give people advice, but I try not to do it because when you give people advice, what you're saying is "You could have done better, and here's how." So, even though we're doing this from a place of compassion, it often doesn't come across that way. So I try to just say, "Yeah, that sounds awful. I am sorry. This stinks. This is so rough. And then what happened?" I try to be curious with them. 'Cause curiosity is an inherently compassionate stance because what we're saying is "I care enough about you to continue to listen to your story. Your story matters to me." Maybe we'll laugh with them if we can, but being careful not to laugh at them. Um, but continuing to say, "Yeah, it's okay. This is really hard. You're not a bad parent. We've all been there." And the more that we can have that compassion for others, we're literally practicing compassion in that moment. And then we need to just keep practicing it for ourselves. And when I say the word practice, I want you to think about a kid going on a soccer field and learning how to practice soccer. So if anybody's watched a toddler practice soccer, it's hilarious. They've got these tiny little feet and there's this enormous ball, and they literally can't make contact. They can't get their tiny foot to kick the enormous ball. And we don't say to them, "Oh my God, you're terrible at this. You might as well just give up." We bring them back to the field week after week and they keep practicing, and eventually they turn into amazing soccer players and they can actually kick the ball. They can do these amazing things because they kept showing up. Eventually it got easier. They develop this muscle memory. And so to the extent that we can keep showing up for ourselves and practicing these words, I have to tell you, I literally have these words on a sticky note because I couldn't come up with them in that moment. I was like, "I think I'm supposed to be being nice to myself. I'll know what that sounds like." And now they just come naturally. And I say to myself, "It's okay, this is hard. I don't want to do hard things. But I can."

Elizabeth Romanski (37:04):
Exactly. And I think, you know, it comes back to the whole idea of mindfulness too. When I started practicing meditation, they always told me, you know, it's a muscle. Like you have to build that muscle. And that always really resonated with me because it is so true. Even when you are trying to build it, like you get frustrated, but once you have it and you're able to really use it properly, I mean, the outcomes are, are so much better.

Dr. Carla Naumburg (37:29):
Absolutely, and for parents out there who are thinking, "Is she freaking kidding me? Am I supposed to start meditating every day? I have so much going on." No, that's not what we're saying. Please don't take this as like, this is a thing you have to do to become a good or better parent. All we're saying is there are strategies. And I talk about them a lot in the book that can make parenting a little easier. And usually it just involves like slowing down and taking a few breaths in the heat of the moment. So you can just calm yourself down enough not to lose it. And that is a thing you can practice and get better at. If you forget to practice, that's okay. You're still a great parent. These things happen.

Elizabeth Romanski (37:59):
Exactly.

Ann Gadzikowski (37:59):
I know we're getting near the end of our time together. Carla, is there any takeaway or final note that you would like to convey to our parents who are listening to our podcast?

Dr. Carla Naumburg (38:10):
I just want to say to parents, you're not alone. We're all in this together. We are all struggling together. We're all finding moments of grace together, and this is not going to last forever. As we record this podcast, we're in a particularly hard time during the pandemic in school, starting up to whatever degree it's starting and people working to whatever degree they're working. This is hard for all of us. It's okay if it's hard, it doesn't mean you're doing anything wrong and this is not going to last forever.

Ann Gadzikowski (38:34):
That's good to hear. I appreciate that. Thank you.

Elizabeth Romanski (38:37):
Yeah, no, I, I really appreciated our conversation today and thank you so much for taking the time and sharing a lot of really good wisdom, and another takeaway from the whole conversation is the idea of self compassion and how important it is, especially this year.

Dr. Carla Naumburg (38:53):
Absolutely.

Ann Gadzikowski (38:53):
So let's all go and lower our expectations!

Dr. Carla Naumburg (38:57):
I love that Ann!. That's the best. Let's end on that note.

Elizabeth Romanski (39:01):
That's awesome.

Elizabeth Romanski (39:02):
Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Raising Curious Learners. Special thanks to our guest today, Dr. Carla Naumberg, She's a clinical social worker and author of the bestselling parenting book "How to Stop Losing Your Sh*t With Your Kids", for reminding us about the importance of mindfulness and self compassion, especially this year. You can find her at carlanaumberg.com and on Instagram @carlanaumberg. I'm Elizabeth Romanski and my cohost is Ann Gadzikowski. Our audio engineer and editor for this program is Emily Goldstein. If you liked this episode, make sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, leave a review and share with your friends. This program is copyrighted by Encyclopedia Britannica, Inc. All rights reserved.

Ann Gadzikowski (39:56):
This episode is brought to you by Britannica for Parents, a free site with expert advice for your family. Whether you're wondering how to explain zoom to your three-year-old, or what to think about your child's new friendship with Siri, we're here to help at parents.britannica.com.